Notícias
The Interview, BBC (Davos, Switzerland, February, 23 2007)
Now on the BBC World Service, time for The Interview:
Lyse Doucet - Hello and welcome, I’m Lyse Doucet. My guest today wants to put his country, Brazil, on the map. Not just that, he wants to turn our map of the world upside-down, so that developing nations in the South come out on top, in trade, in social progress and in political clout. But does Latin America’s largest nation have the biggest voice in its region and around the world? Celso Amorim, the Foreign Minister of Brazil, welcome to The Interview.
Celso Amorim – My pleasure.
Lyse Doucet – Let’s start with maps. The map that you are said to have on the wall behind the desk in your office. It’s an inverted map with the South on the top. (Celso Amorim – Well…) Is that the map that guides you as a foreign minister? Celso Amorim – Well, it is a good conversation piece, anyway. And I’m sure you could also claim that all the other maps are inverted. That map was originally drawn in the beginning of the XVI Century and a tapestry was made out copying it, not in my administration, that happened thirty or forty years ago, but I think it is a very good map, also because you see Africa in the center and all of us have to pay a lot of attention to Africa.
Lyse Doucet – But you want the world to pay a lot of attention to Brazil?
Celso Amorim – I think the world has always paid some attention to Brazil not always to the good side, sometimes to some good sides like football, or things like that, but I think also Brazil has a role to play. It is a positive role, we are a peaceful country, I mean, we have given a big contribution to world peace. We have ten neighbors, that’s not usual, very few countries have as many neighbors as that, and we haven’t had a war for more than 150 years. So it starts with that. We have a multiracial society, with its problems, we know that, but of course, very rich in its diversity, and… So I think we can give a contribution, we’re a large economy, well, we have a large population….
Lyse Doucet – When you became Foreign Minister in 2003, for the second time, you spoke in your acceptance speech of the national mood, saying that in contrast when you’d been foreign minister before in the 90’s there hadn’t been, what you called, a self-awareness in Brazil. Conditions, you said, in the 90’s weren’t right for Brazil to play a big role. What did you mean by self- awareness?
Celso Amorim – Well, maybe I meant self- esteem more than self-awareness, I don’t remember exactly what I said, but that is what I meant. And I think Brazil had, well we had a long period of military government, as you know, which surely affected our self-esteem. When we got out of the military government, soon afterwards, the first president that was elected was impeached, on grounds of corruption. Then we had the government which I served too, which was, I think a very honest, good government, but it was really a transition government, so there was not the kind of…., we had a very high inflation, which actually started to go down precisely in that government, and I don’t think the Brazilian democracy had been truly proved. And when President Lula was elected, a man coming from the working class, that had a political and a social agenda, I think that gave a lot of self-esteem to Brazil, and they say: that’s possible, we can elect a working class man who is an important leader, who has charisma, who knows what he wants for Brazil, and we are not ashamed of the fact that he doesn’t speak English, for instance!
Lyse Doucet – Well, it’s useful to speak English but not essential! But so much self- esteem, now, so much pride in yourself, that you believe Brazil should have a seat on the UN Security Council? The top table?
Celso Amorim – Well, you know, this is an old story actually, that began even before the self-esteem that I referred to, because when the Second World War was coming to a close, even President Roosevelt thought that Brazil should be in the Security Council to insure a better balance between the different regions of the world, I believe, and being one of the countries that fought the war, also. But I think now, more and more it’s clear that you can’t have a legitimate Security Council which takes decisions that affect everybody’s life, could be composed only of those countries that were the bigger powers then. Developing countries must be there, India must be there, an African country must be there, and I think a South American country or a Latin American country must be there. And the name of Brazil occurs naturally, not only to us, but to many other people, including Prime Minister Blair, who referred to it sometimes, including President Chirac who referred to it sometimes, including the leaders of many of our neighbors.
Lyse Doucet – After President Lula’s election victory in October, you told the press that Brazil has decided to look increasingly towards South America, your own region. So of all the stages Brazil plays on, your region is the most important?
Celso Amorim – Yes, I would say so. And it’s natural. I mean, I’ve already referred to the fact that we have ten neighbors, I mean, neighbors with borders, apart from that two countries that are very near, like Ecuador and Chile, and it is a region which needs to integrate itself. When you look at the world today, and you see that big blocks vying for power, or economic power, the United States is a block in itself, China is a block in itself, the European Union is a block that keeps growing. I think South America would be an important block, but that needs a lot of effort. It’s a daily work. It’s not something that you just write a beautiful declaration, or treaty, and then it happens. It’s not like that.
Lyse Doucet – Let’s look at the vying for power within your own region. How worried are you that Brazil’s voice is being eclipsed by Hugo Chavez? He speaks more loudly, much more controversially, and has a lot of oil money to spend on his neighbors.
Celso Amorim – President Chavez is a good friend of ours. So I won’t say anything that would contradict this basic fact, but well, when you speak more loudly maybe you are immediately more heard, but, I don’t know, History will tell whose voice will have a greater impact in the region. And, by the way, I think many of the things that he says are very, in a way, coherent with the social situation that he found in Venezuela which is a country that needs a lot of reform and change, but we have our own way.
Lyse Doucet –What is it like when you sit down and talk to him? You’ve had meetings with Hugo Chavez?
Celso Amorim – Yes, many.
Lyse Doucet – Does he use the colorful language when he talks one-on-one that he uses in the press? When the head of the Organization of American States, José Miguel Insulza, criticized Hugo Chavez’s moves against the press saying it looked like an apparent censorship, Hugo Chavez hit back and called him an imperial viceroy and, if you excuse the expression, “an asshole from a to e”. What does he talk like at the table?
Celso Amorim – Well, he never referred to the Secretary General in those terms to us. (Lyse Doucet – Well, that is what he said to the press.) The colorful language …he is a man who has read quite a lot also, and he makes many metaphors, which makes conversation interesting. As you know, President Lula has been very much attacked by the Brazilian press but he was always absolutely respectful of the Brazilian press, so there is no doubt about our position in that case. And, actually, we expressed in the Organization of American States our respect for Secretary General Insulza.
Lyse Doucet – Of course, you’re the Foreign Minister, so you are being very diplomatic. So let me call from a former Brazilian Foreign Minister, Felipe Lampreia. (Celso Amorim – yes…) He said it was a big mistake to let Venezuela join your regional economic block, Mercosur, because he said “Chavez wants to control it, and is President Lula’s biggest rival.” He says, “Lula is moderate and pragmatic. Chavez is revolutionary, socialist, an international agitator who sees himself as the leader of Latin America”.
Celso Amorim – Well…, Lampreia is of course now in opposition. He is a good person, he is a good friend of mine, but, you know, when I spoke about self-esteem, an aspect of that is also self-confidence. When Venezuela joins Mercosur actually it’s more likely that Brazil will influence Venezuela than the other way around. We are the most powerful economy, we are the biggest country, we have institutions that have been proven already by History. We respect President Chavez’s choice, I should say the Venezuelan peoples’ choice, because President Chavez was elected once and again and faced a referendum, and so on. I think President Chavez on the whole makes a positive contribution, because of his concern with social matters. Of course sometimes he gets a bit too enthusiastic and we have to try to moderate him. It has happened in our discussions, let us be frank… (Lyse Doucet – He listens?) yes, in our discussions, yes, about Mercosur, and about… I have a story about President Chavez, I don’t know if we have time to go through that but President Chavez was thinking in the beginning
that getting into Mercosur was just signing a piece of paper, or expressing some rhetorical will or something like that. I talked to him and I told him a story of a Greek king who wished to learn geometry and asked who was the best geometer and someone said it was Euclides. And he called Euclides and said: I want to learn geometry, but I don’t want to go through all those books. And Euclides said: well, there is no royal way to geometry. President Chavez laughed and very, very soon he revealed that he learned and said: “you know I learned my geometry already”. So he listens.
Lyse Doucet – Now, as you know outside the region they are casting a whole red shadow across Latin America saying that one after another left leaning governments are coming to power. Sitting in the region is that how it looks to you?
Celso Amorim – I think that’s true for Latin America in general, but I would like to speak more of South America. The backlog of social injustice is immense. Even our own country has one of the worst records in terms of income distribution in the world. The same goes for Venezuela, the same goes for many other countries. I don’t want to mention one by one, for Bolivia, for instance. So it is natural that leaders that are concerned with these social injustices come to power. In the case of Brazil, it was a leader who came democratically, who has a democratic program, and who will implement it in a democratic way, with debate, with discussion, as he just re-emphasized the other day when he launched his growth program, and he said that it is useless to grow without democracy. So…that’s our way, but we don’t want to export our model, but if we can preach by example, that’s fine.
Lyse Doucet – How much does it worry you that the United States seems to be worried about a lot of the left leaning countries coming to power in your region?
Celso Amorim – I don’t think they should worry about left leaning countries. I think they should worry, and all of us should worry, if there are dictatorial regimes, non-elected governments, military governments, as there existed in the past. We want our region to be democratic, we want our region to deal with the social problems that we have, and we want our region to have a good dialogue with the United States, and if we can help in that direction, and we have helped a little bit in the past, in some cases, I think we should.
Lyse Doucet – When they get on the phone to you, if Condoleeza Rice calls you up and says: what are we going to do about Hugo Chavez, he’s got a war of words with us and perhaps more?
Celso Amorim - Well, let us see what we can do to improve that relation. Actually in the past when there was, for instance, this recall referendum in Venezuela, that was not time of Condi Rice, it was Colin Powell, but I was sometimes twice a day on the phone, but I think in a climate of mutual respect, that’s the essential thing. No one gives orders, no one receives orders, we have dialogue.
Lyse Doucet – You’re listening to Brazil’s top diplomat, the Foreign Minister of Brazil, Celso Amorim, speaking to me, Lyse Doucet, on The Interview, on the BBC World Service. Of course you also talk about activism in your foreign policy, and you saw that in practice when shortly after President Lula came to power, and you became his foreign minister, he took his cabinet on a trip to the Northeast, where he was born, and he said he wanted you to see the poorest regions of the country, to look misery in the eye. You had come from the majestic surroundings of London as Ambassador in London, how did that trip affect you?
Celso Amorim – Ah, well, I think it was a very good trip and a very educational trip, because I could see the people maybe from a distance that I had not seen so closely before, in the same way. And I think to see the poor conditions in states of the Northeast of Brazil, makes clear to you what you have to represent. It’s fine that we represent
the business class and the business interests, that’s part of our job, but we also have to represent these downtrodden people, these hungry people who want to be heard. So I think for a foreign minister it is very important to have that. I am very glad that President Lula took me, not only to this trip, but that was the first one.
Lyse Doucet – Because you were quoted to saying at the time that you’d only seen this in the movies, this sort of poverty.
Celso Amorim – Not normally, I would say, yes. (Lyse Doucet interrupts – What marked you the most?) You don’t feel same way. Well, I must say, in this trip there are two things that marked me. One was the poverty itself, I mean, you had places where there was not a bridge to cross and the city was divided and you had to go by boat from one place to another, but what also impressed me very much, struck me very much, was the hope. The hope the people had on President Lula, that he would change things. And that probably caused even a greater impression than the poverty itself, because the hope is even more difficult to see in films.
Lyse Doucet – Because poverty must have been stark, Brazil at that time had one of the most unequal income distributions of the world.
Celso Amorim – And it still has, I mean, we have improved.
Lyse Doucet – You get like conditions we have in Spain and Subsaharan Africa in your own country?
Celso Amorim – Yes, I would say so, yes, it’s true. That is why President Lula gives so much attention to the social aspect. So, you know, I’m very glad that I can work for a government that is so much committed to social reform but at the same time respects all the tenets of democracy.
Lyse Doucet – Is that why when you got the call to become foreign minister you said yes? Celso Amorim – Yes, well, I think that, as I said, having President Lula as a President (Lyse Doucet interrupts – that made the difference) that made the diff….
Lyse Doucet interrupts – What was it the day, were you in London when you got the call that he would like you to be part of his team?
Celso Amorim – Well, I got a call that he would like to interview me, he didn’t say interview, but he would like to have a talk to me. Then we had two conversations. The first conversation he said, “well, come back here in three days from now”. And I came back three days later, still with many ideas on my head, trying to maybe impress him, I don’t know, and in the middle of the conversation he just interrupted me and said: I want to invite you to be the Foreign Minister. It was very moving, because …
Lyse Doucet – You accepted?
Celso Amorim – I accepted immediately, yes.
Lyse Doucet – Is he your friend as well as your boss?
Celso Amorim – I would say so, yes, … yes, yes. Yes, I would say so.
Lyse Doucet – And the fact that he had this charisma, this extraordinary story of being going from a shoeshine boy and a metal worker to the highest office of Brazil, was that an asset for you as the Foreign Minister, it gave you a more audacious foreign policy because he had this mandate for social change and he talked about it not for just Brazil, but for the whole world?
Celso Amorim – I think his personality has a lot to do with the audacity, as you call it, of our foreign policy. I think he, well, for instance, you mentioned the map. And the expression that once he used when we were discussing agreements with the Arab world, with Africa and China he said: “well, we have to change the world economic geography”. So that’s his expression, not my expression. So it’s a pleasure actually serving to him. He is a very intelligent man, too. I mean, it’s obvious by the fact of his history, but, I mean … If he doesn’t want something to be done, he says clearly, there is no way, no need to try to guess what he will think. It’s a very clear, very direct, very frank, very friendly relation.
Lyse Doucet – But now when some of the shine has gone off Lula, we saw in the recent election that there had to be a second round of voting, that must have been a bit of a shock, that people are asking now if he let some of his supporters down, are you still this enthusiastic about being his Foreign Minister?
Celso Amorim – Well, it may sound strange but I feel even more enthusiastic, because I think we can see with more maturity what we have done and what we need still to do. And I think President Lula has this very clear view also. So, I think it’s there, of course sometimes you feel tired, physically, because, you know, you have so many things to do, but then you think what else would I be doing, that would be as interesting, and, at least in my view, as good to my country, to the people to which I belong?
Lyse Doucet – To someone that believes in it all so much, in the whole project if you like, was it disappointing for you when a government which came in promising a clean government was then bogged down in a corruption scandal?
Celso Amorim – I think it was for all of us, a very difficult moment of tension, also for President Lula, one thing I (Lyse Doucet interrupts – And for you?) well, (Lyse Doucet continues – the whole cash for votes scandal in the Parliament?) Well, it’s not nice to have these things happening, but one thing that was really very important is that we had a clear view, and I always had the conviction that President Lula was not involved in any of those things.
Lyse Doucet – As the President he should’ve known about them? And it was his party, (Celso Amorim – Well…) the Workers Party, it dragged …, it was a shadow over the workers party as well.
Celso Amorim – Well, I don’t want to justify anything that happened. I think that some of it was already, in a way had a political, some of them paid the political price already, they were deprived of mandates, and others will be probably, [they] will still be tried by Justice, I don’t know, so these will run its course. There is no doubt there were mistakes, there were no doubts they were wrongdoing, but I don’t think that these affect the center of the Government, and the essence of President Lula, and that’s also the view of the Brazilian people. And that’s why he was elected with such a big majority in the second round, more than 60% of the vote, which in Brazil means what, almost 60 million votes, so it’s quite a lot of people that think that way.
Lyse Doucet – Well you, your agenda, your job in Brazil, as Foreign Minister there, it also means you spend a lot of time also on trade, and Brazil was instrumental in launching what’s known as the Group of 20, the G-20, the middle income countries which includes powerful regional players Brazil, China, India. It caused quite a stir at the time because it was the voice of the South speaking up against the G-8 of industrialized nations. How did it feel to you in Brazil?
Celso Amorim – First of all, it’s not only middle income countries, we had also very poor countries, like Tanzania, which is one of the least developed countries. I think we had to stand up and say: “well…guys, these agreements may be good for you, but not for us”. It paid to have the courage, of course, we got an article by my good friend now Bob Zoellick, but at the time we had those fights. (Lyse Doucet – The US trade negotiator?) Yes. In which he wrote for the Financial Times he divided the world between the countries that want to help and those who are unhelpful. And the name of Brazil appeared five times in the article! I found it quite a record. (Lyse Doucet – As unhelpful?) Of course. But then, some months later he called me: Celso, maybe we can have a talk and we can join also Pascal Lamy, who was then European Commissioner with the Indians. So that is how we restarted the whole thing. And, of course, now we are restarting it again. That is the fate of all this round of trade negotiations.
Lyse Doucet – Now, you laughed now with a very big smile about what Robert Zoellick said about you, but at the time, if he said that in public, he probably said even worse in private, that must have made you angry?
Celso Amorim – Well, there is something, there is a national anger, there is a political anger and there is personal anger. I try never to be personally angry, but sometimes I have to be nationally angry or politically angry. But we always discussed everything with respect, and that’s why we were able to make progress. You spoke about the Round and I don’t want to dwell on that very much, but if this Round succeeds, which I hope it will, we have achieved an enormous amount of things. And that was to a large extent, not only, I would say, but to a large extent due to the work of the G-20.
Lyse Doucet – You talk about respect, but a few years ago you talked about, in a speech, about the embarrassment of developing nations having to sit at the table and claim fair treatment. What does it feel like in those, we only get glimpses when they have the opening pictures of these long tables, all the world’s representatives there, developing and developed nations, is it embarrassing?
Celso Amorim – It feels bad. It feels bad, and I am very glad to look back and see how much we changed and the fact that we are not only invited to the tables of negotiation, but also even to the panels that are shown to the world. Not because … I don’t think that out of any kind of vanity or superficial pride, but I think it’s because it’s really important for the world, it’s for Brazil certainly, but it’s also for the world.
Lyse Doucet – When you say it feels bad, what is it, do you feel like a beggar, asking for something that you feel is your due?
Celso Amorim – No, I never felt like a beggar, I must say because I never beg, but (Lyse Doucet interrupts – How do you feel bad? What does it mean, you sit there in your suit and feel bad?) Well, you are embarrassed, you have sometimes to leave the room, or you have to..., but you know you do that but not to much avail in reality. You feel double-crossed, you feel ill- treated, maybe that has to do with the way, I myself and my country, I would say, behaved. I never felt humiliated, because I never let it arrive at that stage. I saw other people doing, with much richer countries, things I would never do. I’ll never do. (Lyse Doucet interrupts – Like what?) Well, like being told: you don’t repeat that, or whatever. I would just leave the room.
Lyse Doucet – Is that Celso Amorim’s tactic in negotiation, every negotiator has that … Celso Amorim – Well, that’s not tactic. So that is what I said …, what I mentioned about national, or if you call civic anger or political anger. You have to show it, because if you don’t respect yourself no one will. And that’s true for persons and that’s true for countries.
Lyse Doucet – But you’ve pointed out often in these talks that this particular Round, the Doha talks, which have gone on since 2001, the difference in these is that actually the interest of the developing world are meant to be addressed, to redress the trade imbalances. The essence of the deal is that developed countries like the European Union and the US want greater access to your markets for their industrial products, in exchange you want them to reduce, or even eliminate, some of the farm subsidies, is that the trade off?
Celso Amorim – Well, (Lyse Doucet interrupts – roughly speaking?) yes, roughly speaking, yes, but you put it in the reverse order because the priority, this is after all the development ground, so they should do the biggest gesture and we will do something. The main contribution has to come from the richer countries. Also because what we are asking from them is not only tariffs, is to eliminate the biggest distortion that may exist, which is the subsidies, which makes trade totally unfair. I mean, we heard, for instance, a dramatic speech by the Foreign Minister, or the Trade Minister of Benin, because they produce cotton and their people just die because of the subsidies. So it is very nice to give aid on the one hand, and take away with the subsidies on the other. So, this is the main thing, but we will pay back, but the big gesture has to come from the rich guys.
Lyse Doucet – If you were a betting man, what are the chances of a deal 50-50?
Celso Amorim – No, I would say more. I would say 70 or 80 to 20. Because I think Prime Minister Tony Blair said it would be a catastrophe if we don’t finish. I think it would be a scandal, actually. Because we are not so far away. You know, we are speaking of a couple billion dollars here, well, if you think of the Millennium Goals, that it thinks that 50 billion dollars should be disbursed each year, this is peanuts. And it will have much more lasting benefits.
Lyse Doucet – When you come to gatherings like the World Economic Forum in Davos, do you have a real sense that Brazil as a nation has arrived, it matters on the world stage now?
Celso Amorim – Well, if I say yes it will sound too presumptuous, but (Lyse Doucet interrupts – If you say no I’ll be disappointed.) yeah, yeah, no, I think so. And when I see President Lula speaking even more so. But even when I’m there, and I speak, when Brazil speaks, whoever is there, by the way, there is silence in the room.
Lyse Doucet – Celso Amorim, thank you for talking to us on The Interview on the BBC World Service.
Celso Amorim – It was a pleasure.
Lyse Doucet – Brazil’s Foreign Minister, Celso Amorim, was talking to Lyse Doucet, the producer was Anette Mackenzie. If would you like to tell us your views on the program, you can either write a letter to The Interview, BBC World Service, Bush House, London, WC2B 4PH or if you have Internet access the e-mail address is theinterview ( that’s all one word) @bbc.co.uk or you can go to bbcworldservice.com and select The Interview from the drop down program menu. This is the BBC.