Notícias
Press Conference of the Minister of Foreign Affairs, Ambassador Celso Amorim, and the United Kingdom Foreign Secretary, Jack Straw
Jack Straw: Ladies and Gentlemen, this is a sombre occasion. I have been very pleased, of course, to welcome the Foreign Minister of Brazil, Celso Amorim, to a meeting which we have just held. I profoundly regret the circumstances in which we have had to hold this meeting which was to discuss the death of the Brazilian citizen, Jean-Charles de Menezes, at Stockwell Underground Station last Friday.
Sir Ian Blair, the Commissioner of Police in London, has already apologised to the family, to the Brazilian people and to the Brazilian Government for what happened, and I have repeated that and said how deeply I regret what happened last Friday and how very, very sorry I am that it has happened, and I would personally, Minister, like to take this opportunity to offer my own condolences to Mr Menezes’ family and friends and condolences to the Brazilian Government and people.
As I said to you in our meeting, my own sense of loss is made the more poignant because I happen to live in this area of London. I have lived there for well over 25 years. I go to the local park each year where there is a celebration of Portuguese and Brazilian culture and I don’t need therefore to be told about the great contribution that both the Portuguese and the Brazilian communities are making to the life of London.
At our meeting, Minister, I was joined by John Yates, who is the Deputy Assistant Commissioner of Police in London and by Roy Clark, who is the Director of Operations of the Independent Police Complaints Commission. Deputy Assistant Commissioner John Yates repeated the Commissioner’s apologies to you. You said that you wished, on behalf of the family, to see fast progress made in respect of the claim for compensation which is being submitted by the family. I explained to you that this is by law a matter for the Commissioner, but Mr Yates on behalf of the Commissioner said that the claim would be handled sympathetically and quickly.
You raised questions about the release of the body. This is a matter which is partly in the hands of the Independent Police Complaints Commission but ultimately a matter for decision by the Coroner who is the special judge who handles enquiries into deaths like this and Mr. Clark, on behalf of the Independent Police Complaints Commission, said that he would do everything that he could to expedite the release of the body.
I should also say how grateful we have been to you for your, and your government’s, support over the years for the fight against terrorism in which we are involved and which indeed the whole of the international community is involved.
Thank you.
Celso Amorim: Thank you, maybe if I can say some words in Portuguese because there are some Brazilian press also here.
Queria dizer que estive aqui hoje na seqüência do meu encontro de ontem com Lord Triesman. Agradeço a atenção que o Secretário do Exterior, Jack Straw, deu a esse nosso encontro. Tive hoje a ocasião de expressar os mesmos sentimentos que já havia expressado ontem, que são sentimentos de consternação e de perplexidade diante da morte de um brasileiro inocente e pacífico. Recebi, conforme foi dito aqui, pedidos de desculpas – colocaria dessa maneira – das autoridades britânicas. Recebi, também, renovadas garantias de que haverá uma investigação em profundidade sobre as circunstâncias da morte. Evidentemente que nós conhecemos as circunstâncias gerais, mas sobre as mais específicas haverá uma investigação independente. O Secretário Jack Straw lembrou seu próprio papel em criar esta Comissão para queixas ou reclamações relativas à ação da polícia. Isto é importante para que se saiba exatamente as razões do erro, uma vez que o erro já foi admitido.
Tive ocasião de levantar - embora isso seja um assunto naturalmente da família, mas a família tem todo o nosso apoio - duas questões específicas. Uma tem a ver com a questão do retorno do corpo ao Brasil. Lembrei que os familiares, inclusive os pais, são pessoas idosas, humildes, e que é importante que isso ocorra o mais rápido possível. Tive garantias – embora com a ressalva de que não há uma dependência clara do Poder Executivo, se entendo bem – de que isso ocorrerá rapidamente; não há razões para que isso não ocorra rapidamente. Recebi também resposta positiva, na hipótese da família pedir uma segunda autópsia, de que isso também possa ser feito rapidamente.
O outro ponto que mencionei, também lembrado pelo Secretário do Exterior, diz respeito à compensação. Evidentemente, isso não é algo para nós. O Governo brasileiro, expressando a opinião pública brasileira, está chocado, naturalmente, consternado com os eventos, mas, além disso, há esse aspecto específico. Claro que a única coisa que poderia nos dar satisfação é impossível, que seria dar a vida de novo ao Jean Charles. Como isso não é possível, também algum tipo de compensação financeira para a família é importante, em se tratando de pessoas humildes. Claro que isso não diminuirá a consternação, a perplexidade, o choque diante da morte de um inocente, mas, enfim, será uma maneira concreta de expressar esse pedido de desculpas que já foi feito de maneira verbal.
O Secretário já disse aqui que entende que além do pedido de desculpas à família, há também a opinião pública brasileira, que o Governo brasileiro encarna, e isso também foi feito. Creio que agora a nossa preocupação mais imediata é que a família e os familiares que estão aqui continuem a ter todo o apoio. Apoio para que possam acompanhar o caso até o seu desfecho, garantir que o corpo volte ao Brasil o mais rápido possível e examinar essa outra questão da indenização, que, evidentemente, não cabe ao Governo pedir, mas que tendo eu estado hoje também com alguns dos familiares, me senti
obrigado a colocar como uma questão importante, como uma expressão, inclusive, dos sentimentos que foram expressos aqui por mais de uma autoridade britânica e, sobretudo, pelo Secretário.
Question: Inaudible
Jack Straw: I am just saying I haven’t got any precise information about his immigration status here. My understanding is that he was here lawfully.
Celso Amorim: Ainformação que temos, que foi dada ao nosso Consulado, é a de que ele estava aqui legalmente.
Question: First of all a question to the Brazilian Foreign Minister. You are obviously under the understanding that he was here legally. Could you give us therefore your reaction to the news that has just come out late this afternoon that Mr. de Menezes was shot a total of 8 times by the Police?
Celso Amorim: Well, I am not a police expert and I don’t know if 5 times, 8 times, or 10 times make that kind of a difference. Of course we understand the plight that the British people are living after the terrorist attacks and the suicide bombings of 7 July and by chance I had the opportunity to express our shock because the following day I was chairing a meeting in the Brazilian Embassy of the so- called G-4 on the reform of the United Nations, so I was personally the person who spoke on that. Of course we have always stressed, and I did stress today in our conversations, that the matter of combating terrorism has to be done with full respect for human rights, and of course if things happen in the way that apparently they did happen this time, it may play into the hands of terrorists actually because they are disturbing the whole thing.
Question: And a question for Mr. Straw. As a part of the wider hunt for these would-be bombers from last Thursday we have the names now of two of the suspects the Police are trying to trace. It would seem -initially anyway...that they wouldn’t appear to be from the Pakistani community. Can you confirm if these two men are British-born and if not, or on top of that, can you confirm what other countries you are liaising with regard to trying to find out about these men?
Jack Straw: Detail about suspects is a matter for the Police to issue, not for me, and it would be quite inappropriate if I was trying to add a gloss to information which the Police have released. So far as cooperation with other countries, we are in contact with a wide range of other countries inside the European Union and beyond to enhance the overall fight against terrorism in which we are now all involved.
Question: Mr. Amorim, are you satisfied with the response by the British Government to the event?
Celso Amorim: Eu vou responder em português. A pergunta é se estou satisfeito com a resposta ou com a reação do Governo Britânico à situação. Creio que só posso dar esta resposta plenamente quando todas as etapas que foram anunciadas aqui estiverem cumpridas, isto é, quando a investigação tenha sido completada e eventuais culpados punidos; se foi um erro, um acidente, ou se foi realmente algo mais; quando as questões relativas à família tiverem sido plenamente atendidas. O que posso dizer é que fui bem recebido, que as minhas gestões foram bem recebidas, que, digamos , o sentimento de choque, de perplexidade e de consternação do povo brasileiro e do Governo brasileiro foi bem recebido e que o fato do Governo britânico ter pedido desculpas pelo que aconteceu demonstra uma atitude positiva. O resto nós veremos à medida que o tempo corra.
Question: Mr. Straw how long was intelligence investigating Jean-Charles de Menezes? At what point was it decided that he was a threat to society being a suicide bomber, and who decided that and why?
Jack Straw: Can I say that I am not in a position to answer those questions, but those are exactly the questions, amongst others, which will be considered very actively by the Independent Police Complaints Commission and Mr Clark is here as Director of Operations of that Commission. It may be helpful if I just provide some background to the Independent Police Complaints Commission and that is this, that we have had some system of investigating complaints against the Police for many years, but there was criticism of the system which increased during the early 1990’s. When I became the Home Secretary I was determined greatly to strengthen the system for investigating complaints against the Police and to make it more independent. In parallel I set up a Judicial Inquiry into the murder of a young black man called Stephen Lawrence and that Inquiry reinforced proposals which I already had for strengthening the independent investigation of complaints against the Police and that led to legislation, which I introduced, establishing this Commission and I would suggest that the system we now have is amongst the most thorough, and the most independent of any in the world.
Question: Doesn’t the ... kind of show that maybe the entire policy of shoot to kill, if not wrong of course because there has got to be a quick response to this kind of thing, is a bit too eager and as Minister Amorim said could be shown to the world as ... can be used basically by the guys who are trying to scare all of us?
Jack Straw: Well look, on the exact circumstances in which this happened, this is a matter for the independent investigation and you will understand why it would not be fair to the family if I was to start speculating about what happened. All I would say, and I think everybody understands this, is that the introduction of suicide bombing into this country has obviously changed the context of policing as it would in any country at any time. Now the Minister is absolutely right to say that whatever the context, it has to include an observance of human rights at the highest level and the need for proportionality. But whilst in this country we have sadly had long experience of dealing with terrorism, we have not had experience of dealing with this particularly pernicious type of terrorism, random killing in which the bomber themselves are ready to kill themselves.
CelsoAmorim: Queria dizer uma palavrinha. Primeiro, para nós há dois aspectos, e estou mais concentrado no caso concreto, e o caso concreto, uma vez que não podemos reabilitar a vida de Jean Charles, é a família e as várias circunstâncias, tanto emotivas quanto materiais, que podem beneficiar a família, e as satisfações que o Governo britânico procurou dar nas conversas que tivemos. Este é o caso concreto e a razão imediata de eu estar aqui.
Jack Straw mencionou o fato de que a questão do terrorismo necessita um combate global. Eu acho que sim. Sobre o primeiro aspecto, ainda, queria acrescentar algo, porque os sentimentos que expressei, em nome do povo brasileiro, foram também objeto da minha conversa com o Presidente da República, que tem sido informado durante todo o processo. Inclusive hoje, depois de estar com a família, conversei diretamente com ele. Quanto ao aspecto mais global, não há a menor dúvida de que o terrorismo tem que ser enfrentado globalmente. Mas justamente porque ele tem que ser enfrentado globalmente, acho que temos que trabalhar – e isso não é uma questão que vai ser resolvida hoje, nem amanhã – para que haja normas globais para o combate ao terrorismo, incluindo as normas de proteção aos direitos humanos.
Question: Do you know of any specific sum of money he wanted in compensation?
Celso Amorim: No. It would not be up to me to deal with this matter.
Question: Yes, I understand that. And could I ask Mr. Straw do you have any plans to meet the family? Jack Straw: I would be very happy to meet representatives of the family if they wish to meet me. Of course, it goes without question. And may I say that also applies to Sir Ian Blair and his senior colleagues.
Question: Mr. Straw I am sure you were informed of the sequence of events since the time that Mr. Menezes left his home and until the time that he was shot. As you are a member of the government, you must be informed of that. Could you share this with us?
Jack Straw: May I say that it is precisely because I am a member of the government I have not been informed of that. It is an independent investigation. This detail is held by the Police and it will now be passed on, if it has not already been passed on, to the Independent Police Complaints Commission. I have not sought to obtain any information about the detail of the operation, nor would it be proper for me to do so until this investigation is complete.
CelsoAmorim: Queria dizer mais uma coisa. Me desculpem, acho que com isso tenho que partir, porque, se não, não chegarei a tempo. Tenho que estar no Brasil amanhã. Queria dizer mais uma coisa. Primeiro que, tendo vivido aqui no Reino Unido, tenho confiança em que a Comissão Independente fará uma investigação plena, “thorough” como se diz aqui na Inglaterra, uma investigação completa e plena sobre as circunstâncias, e que, se houver culpados, eles serão punidos. Mas quero também dizer, e faço isso publicamente porque o assunto não chegou a ser mencionado, e não tenho dúvida da resposta, que, se ao longo desse processo, caso a família ou o Governo brasileiro tenha dúvidas sobre a Comissão, que nos será dada a oportunidade de colocar estes questionamentos.