President Lula's Press Conference in Paris, during a State Visit to France

President Lula: Well, first, my good morning to the Brazilian press, to the French press that is here, to other journalists. My good morning to my ministers: Mauro Vieira [Foreign Affairs], Ricardo Lewandowski [Justice], Alexandre Silveira [Mines and Energy], Marina Silva [Environment], Márcio Elias Rosa [Executive Secretary at the Ministry of Development, Industry, Trade and Services] and our dear Ambassador Ricardo Neiva Tavares [Brazilian Ambassador to France]; to my dear wife and partner, Janja; to Senator Giordano [Alexandre Luiz Giordano], who is accompanying the delegation – the other senator had to leave; also Federal Deputy Lindbergh Faria, PT leader in the Chamber of Deputies; Pedro Campos, PSB leader in the Chamber Deputies; and companion Túlio Gadelha, also a leader in the Chamber of Deputies.

Well, Admiral Marco Sampaio Olsen, our Navy Commander, came to formalize the innovations in the Brazil-France Agreement concerning the construction of the nuclear-powered submarine. Our esteemed Andrei Rodrigues, Director-General of the Federal Police, along with Minister Lewandowski and myself, will travel to Toulon [Lyon] for a meeting with INTERPOL. For the first time, INTERPOL has a Brazilian Secretary General, and we will discuss how we can work together, INTERPOL and Brazil, through our Federal Police. We will talk about combating organized crime, becoming more effective... We aim to learn a bit more and, perhaps, teach a bit more.

But the truth is that organized crime is increasingly transforming into a very powerful multinational industry, and it requires great effectiveness and intense joint work from all the world's police forces concerned with this, so that we can combat it. I also want to express my joy at having Jorge Viana, our dear president of Apex, here with me; he was one of the promoters of yesterday's business meeting, which brings us a very interesting news.

In other words, today is Saturday; many of you could be resting, some could be riding jet skis, others could be camping somewhere, and we are working. And we will work tomorrow, and we will work on Monday, because I am very happy with this trip.

I recall that, during my first term, I made a trip to the Middle East. On that particular trip, our fellow Furlan, who served as the Minister of Industry and Trade, invested 500,000 dollars in organizing a fair showcasing Brazilian products, primarily in the footwear sector. That single fair yielded 50 million dollars in revenue that very night.

And the criticism I received was that 500,000 dollars had been spent, and no one mentioned that we had earned 50 million dollars. On this trip, people have occasionally asked how much we are spending. I do not know how much I am spending, because I do not handle that, but I do know how much I am bringing back to Brazil.

And we are bringing back to Brazil the commitment of the 15 largest French investors, who already have companies established in Brazil and, over the next five years, will provide an investment of 100 billion [reais]. That is the big news.

If we add up the investments we secured in China, and if we add up the investments we secured in Japan, we will realize that we are doing exactly what any President of the Republic should be doing in Brazil. In other words, Brazil is a truly large country. During my administration, we were the eighth-largest economy in the world. When I am not here, it often drops to twelfth. My goal is to bring Brazil back to being the sixth-largest economy in the world. We were there in 2008, and I believe we still have the vital steps to take to get there again.

Just so you have an idea, I will return to Brazil on the 12th or 15th, and I have a meeting scheduled with 15 Caribbean countries to discuss strategies to defend multilateralism, to strengthen relations with Brazil, and partnerships we can build together.

Last week, we held a meeting with more than 40 Agriculture Ministers from Africa, aiming to present what we do and how we can contribute to Africa, taking our technological knowledge there, taking our experience, particularly the revolution that occurred in the Cerrado, because the African savanna greatly resembles the Cerrado.

Then, on July 6th and 7th, we will have the BRICS meeting in Brazil, in Rio de Janeiro. Subsequently, immediately following that, something will occur that will enter the Guinness Book [of World Records]. You may write that down.

I believe it will be the first time that a Head of State will simultaneously receive three other Heads of State. As soon as the BRICS meeting concludes, I will receive Prime Minister [Narendra] Modi, of India; then I will receive President [Abdul Fatah Khalil] al-Sisi, of Egypt; and subsequently I will receive President Prabowo [Subianto], of Indonesia. You can see that I already know the names of all of them; they are all already acquaintances of mine.

And we will conduct each of these meetings with a very large participation of people from the business sector, because the President's role is to open the door and tell them: look, here are the possibilities, we produce this, we offer this; what do you have to offer us so that we can do business? And this is what I did here in France. I believe that Brazil sometimes still behaves before the European continent as if we were still colonized.

In other words, we often assume that European nations are all more advanced than we are, all wealthier than we are, and that our relationship is consistently one of subservience. I do not believe this should be the case. Brazil possesses numerous qualities that make it superior to any other country in the world.

And I came here to tell [Emmanuel] Macron [President of France]: President Macron, it is a shame that a country the size of Brazil — the eighth-largest economy in the world — and a country the size of France — the fifth or sixth-largest economy in the world — have a trade balance flow of a mere 9 billion. When we close a large deal, we reach 10 billion. This is too little. It is too little.

We have already had... we now have with Vietnam, with whom our relationship is far more recent, a 13 billion dollar trade flow. With a country like Argentina, we have reached a trade flow of 40 billion dollars.

Therefore, we must understand that one of the roles of the President of the Republic is to make things happen. It is not for him to negotiate, but rather to create conditions so that our businesspeople, and the businesspeople from the countries we visit, can meet, get acquainted, exchange ideas, build partnerships, and make things happen.

So, I was very pleased because 15 French business leaders requested a meeting with me; I met with them before the plenary session with the business community, and they announced an investment of 100 billion [reais] in Brazil over the next five years.

This is extremely relevant. It is extremely relevant for a country that needs to stop being small. Brazil needs to stop being small. Brazil needs to assert itself as a large country. Our ambassadors around the world must think big. We are not smaller than anyone. We are not inferior to anyone. We have less history than some, but that means nothing.

While do not have the monuments that other countries have, we do have history. We have the greenery, we have environmental preservation, we have larger quantities of preserved fresh water. These are the things that hold value in our relationships.

And yesterday I said to President Macron: 'Macron, open your heart to Brazil and let us sign this agreement between the European Union and Mercosur.'

There is no reason why not. Look: France has no better friend than Brazil in South America. And Brazil has no better friend than France in Europe. So why are two friends not capable of reaching an agreement? Well, if there are problems, let us sit at a table and find where the differences lie, and let us resolve this. It is important that we never forget: South America, Mercosur, and the European Union comprise a population of 722 million inhabitants, with a modest GDP of 22 trillion dollars.

It would be the most exceptional agreement ever forged at the beginning of this century, and it would serve as a response to Trump's unilateralism. That is to say, multilateralism will survive, and it is the very reason why the world experienced a leap in quality after World War II.

Well, this issue of the helicopter agreement is something I have been guided by since the previous administration, when we made an agreement and produced 50 helicopters in Itajubá, in Minas Gerais.

And Brazil has the only helicopter factory in Latin America. We are interested in reaching an agreement with France so that we can produce helicopters to meet the needs of public security, the needs of healthcare, the needs of defense, and the needs of the environment.

If we put together a large package, Helibras could become a major helicopter manufacturer in Brazil, serving the interests of Latin America, Africa, and potentially other countries—just as we do with EMBRAER’s KC-390, which is now sold in nearly every country around the world

So, that is all. Brazil must present itself as a large country that knows what it desires. Brazil... the time when the President of Brazil traveled the world to beg is over. The ambassadors here understand what I am referring to — begging for a meeting with the Director of the IMF and not being received. Not being received. In fact, one could not even speak by telephone; one spoke with the secretary. This is over. That moment is over. You, the journalists, know that today Brazil is taken into consideration.

Because I learned one thing: the problem is not whether you have money; the problem is not whether you have a university diploma; the problem is that, in relationships, you must have self-respect. You, the journalists, know: if you do not have self-respect, no one respects you. In politics, it is the same.

I like France very much; I like President Macron, but I want to be treated on equal terms. There is no such thing as France being France and Brazil being Brazil. No. We are from the Global South. It has changed. The logic has changed, you see?

And Brazil is a relevant country. We, Brazilians, need to realize the importance of our country.

We owe nothing to anyone. We are still the result of the backwardness of a conservative elite that only constructed our first university in 1920 — four hundred years after Brazil was discovered.

While other countries established [their universities] in 1554, Argentina had already undertaken its first university reform in 1918. We are a consequence of this delay. And we need to work to overcome this delay and push Brazil forward, elevate Brazil, with great pride. With great pride. If in football we are not doing so well, you know, we are performing better in politics.

Things are happening. The Brazilian economy will continue to grow, the wage mass will keep growing, the GDP will keep growing, and the distribution of wealth will keep growing. Things will happen because we have the obligation to make things happen. And this includes international policy, this includes our responsibility.

In addition to these meetings I will be having… this year, I still intend to go to ASEAN [Association of Southeast Asian Nations]. A President of Brazil has never participated in an ASEAN meeting. Well, now I want to visit all ten ASEAN countries. I want to explain what Brazil has to offer, what Brazil wishes to negotiate, and to show our true self. Our rich, mixed heritage—our Indigenous, European, and African roots—must be displayed worldwide, with all our joy and our knowledge.

I return to Brazil on Tuesday. I still have to participate in a debate on the blue economy in Monaco, the Principality of Monaco. You think only Galvão Bueno [a prominent Brazilian sports commentator who covered Formula One competitions] goes to Monaco? I am going to Monaco. And I will hold discussions with business leaders about the blue economy. I was not familiar with 'blue currency,' but in any case...

And I will discuss this issue of the ocean, which is another matter that often is not part of our daily lives, but which is a very serious concern. The ocean is an extremely important entity, as a biome, for planet Earth. We often think it is very vast and that it cannot be damaged. And we keep throwing plastic, and we keep throwing sewage, and we keep throwing plastic, and we keep throwing sewage, and we keep throwing plastic, and we keep throwing sewage. One day, the sea will revolt, and we will pay the price. We will begin to pay through tourism costs. That is what will happen, believe me.

So, we are working to transform Brazil into an extremely relevant country. We have a great responsibility concerning the COP. We decided to host the COP right there in the Amazon, you know, because I want the world to truly see the face of the Amazon. I want the world to see what the Amazon truly is, because many think it is just a bunch of trees. No! There are 30 million human beings who inhabit the Amazon. And, among these 30 million, many people still experience hunger. There are rubber tappers, extractivists, indigenous people, fishermen, small rural producers. And people need to understand that the rich world, which holds a historical and contentious debt with the environment because they [the rich countries] industrialized more than 200 years ago at the cost of the planet's carbonization, must now pay its fair share to decarbonize

I mean, they are paying late, paying one hundred years late! And they know that the current cost for us to maintain the planet's warming at one and a half degrees — if we are to succeed in maintaining it — will amount to a mere trifle of one trillion and 300 billion dollars. This means, if they had done things at the right time, there would not be so much money involved. But they did not pay, not even one installment, then two accumulated, then three, then four, then many years accumulated. Now, my friends, the debt is this huge.

And at COP, we will see whether people wish to address this climate issue seriously. Whether people wish to respect what scientists say and what nature itself says, with the reactions it is having in various parts of the world, or not.

This is why we will conduct a very serious COP, with not much celebration, but rather a great deal of debate, much discussion. We will hold a separate meeting of Heads of State, two days prior, for us to delve deeper. If even near the date, Trump [President of the United States] does not confirm his attendance, I will personally call him and say, “Hey, the COP is here in Brazil; come and discuss this.”

The United States is an important country; it is very wealthy, but it has also polluted extensively and continues to pollute. So, how can it not participate? I believe that the great world leaders, such as Xi Jinping [President of China], must participate in these events so that we can come to a decision.

And this is where our struggle for change in global governance comes in. If we do not have a more representative global governance, with decision-making power and the power, even, to oversee the fulfillment of our decisions, nothing will happen; nothing will happen.

I believe that we are attempting to create the conditions to shift the paradigm of the climate issue discussion. To bring a bit more seriousness, a bit more commitment.

We have committed to our NDCs, from 59% to 67% by 2035, for all sectors of the Brazilian economy. It is not an easy task, but we proposed — without anyone asking — that we would treat this with great seriousness. What we want to know is whether other countries will show the same behavior as Brazil.

So, having said that, I place myself at your disposal for any questions you may have.

President Lula: You may speak in French; I find it beautiful.

Journalist Olivier Poujade – Radio France: "Okay, I thought my Portuguese was more beautiful with a French accent, but, well, I will speak in French."

President Lula: "Speak French."

Journalist Olivier Poujade – Radio France: "Okay, better. A question regarding the conflict in Ukraine. I know that you addressed the two main international crises, which are the crisis in Gaza and the crisis in Ukraine, with President Macron. You both share a common objective: to reach a peace agreement on these two issues. However, you do not share the same methods for this.

I wanted to know if you found a solution with Macron on these two subjects. Did you discuss any solution to bring both parties to agree and gather at a negotiating table regarding the crisis and speak with Putin? I wanted to know if Putin will be invited to the BRICS in Brazil or not?"

President Lula: Well, [Vladimir] Putin is a founding member of BRICS; he is one of the creators of BRICS. He can choose to participate or not. He has been condemned by an international court; he knows that he runs a risk, but the decision is his. He is invited because he is a founding member; he is the creator of BRICS along with Brazil, Russia, and China.

Look, on this issue of the war in Ukraine and Russia, of Russia and Ukraine, I have the perception and awareness that it is normal for a European country and a European leader to decide differently than I do, as I am much further away. There is an ocean between the two continents. So I understand the passion, the vehemence of a European leader. Now, I want them to understand my behavior as well.

I began with this [issue of the] war by strongly criticizing Russia for the occupation of Ukrainian territory. I started by expressing that criticism, and to this day, I continue to do so.

Brazil is part of a group of countries that, together with China, drafted a document proposing the formation of a group of 13 developing nations — which are not directly involved in the conflict — in an effort to find a proposed agreement between Russia and Ukraine, to see if we can bring this war to an end. I believe in this. The ones who do not yet believe are the two countries themselves, both Russia and Ukraine.

Now, you, the fellow journalist who posed the question, from what I gather from your inquiry, you understand international geopolitics.

I sincerely believe that, subconsciously, or rather, unconsciously, every political leader worldwide, everyone knows what is going to happen. Everyone knows that the conditions for an agreement are already in place. What is missing is the courage to state what they truly desire. It is very hard to stop something once you start it. It is very hard. Starting is easier.

I know it is not the same thing, but if we compare a strike to a war: when a strike begins, the union leader delivers the most passionate speeches from the top of a sound truck, and each time the rhetoric becomes stronger, more things are said, and greater commitments are made. Then comes a moment when the leader realizes the strike is no longer leading anywhere, and he no longer knows how to bring it to an end.

Yesterday, I proposed to President Macron that we hold a conversation with Guterres, the Secretary-General of the United Nations. That he visit both Ukraine and Russia, together with a group of emerging countries, which could be formed as a group of friends. The idea would be to listen to what President Zelensky has to say, to listen to what President Putin has to say, and then to build a proposal for an agreement and put it on the table.

If the two sides are not in a position to say what they want, then I believe someone from the outside could express what needs to be said. Now, this will only be possible if there is consent from both sides, because nothing can be done if neither is willing.

I went to Russia for the 80th anniversary of World War II, and I spoke with President Putin about this issue. I had long conversations with Putin, then I went to China and had in-depth discussions with President Xi Jinping. On my way back to Russia, I stopped at the airport to make a long phone call to President Putin, urging him to go to the negotiating table in Istanbul.

It would have been a gesture to those who do not believe he truly wants peace. He explained his reasons. Obviously, I made that proposal fully aware that a government has many people who assist in making decisions, and that often a President does not take the risk of attending a first meeting.

But I told him it was important for him to take that step, to go to Istanbul, and to make public what the basis of an agreement would be. Well, he did not go.

I regretted that he did not go. If I were in his position, I would have gone. So, I believe, my friend, that an agreement is closer than it seems.

For now, I believe that both leaders are having difficulty explaining their limits to their own people. No one is going to get everything they want. People will have to settle for what can realistically be achieved. That is how life works — in our human relationships and in our political relationships. It is like that. We never get everything we want.

We only get what is possible. And they already know what is possible. That is my view.

Obviously, I am far away; you are closer, you even hear the sound of bombs—I do not hear them. But this is my view on this conflict.

Now, as serious as Ukraine is, Gaza is equally grave. The war between Russia and Ukraine involves two formal armies fighting. Gaza is different. In Gaza, there is a highly professionalized army that kills women and children.

And I am shocked by the world’s silence. It seems to me that there is no longer any humanism in people. “Oh, Palestinians can die... Palestinians can die.”

Palestinians are not inferior beings. Palestinians are people like us. They have the right to their land. In 1967, the area where Palestinians could build their country was demarcated, and that land demarcated in 1967 is being taken away. And this is what our struggle for governance is about.

The United Nations, which had the courage to create the State of Israel, does not have the strength to create the Palestinian State. In other words, we are witnessing the decimation of a nation. Under what pretext?

We also criticized Hamas when it invaded Tel Aviv. Now, the question that no one answers is: how did Israeli intelligence allow someone to invade Tel Aviv using a hang glider? Honestly, there are things that my years of schooling do not allow me to understand. So, I keep wondering...

And there are other wars. I do not know if you realize, but today we are living through the period with the most conflicts since World War II. There are conflicts in many places. People have started fighting again, now trying to expand the territory of their countries.

In many places. This no longer makes sense. This is why we are urgently advocating for changing the United Nations Charter and creating a Security Council that better represents the current political map of the world — with representation for the African continent, Latin America, as well as Germany, Japan, and the Middle East.

Africa alone has three countries with more than 100 million inhabitants: Nigeria with 226 million; Ethiopia with 123 million; Egypt with 106 million inhabitants. None of them are represented at the United Nations.

So, people need to understand that, you know? I could say, as I told President Macron: “Open your heart to Brazil in the agreement.” I could say to Xi Jinping, Putin, Trump, Macron, and the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom: “Open your heart at the Security Council and let other countries join to see if we can change the world a little” That is it, my friend.

Journalist Paola de Orte – Rede Globo: Mr. President, good morning. Thank you for holding this press conference to speak with us. Mr. President, at the end of the first day of the State visit, after your meeting with President Macron, I spoke with President Macron, and I asked him about the agreement. He told me that he presented you with a modification which, if Mercosur accepted it, he would sign the agreement by the end of the year.

I wanted to ask you what you think about this proposed modification, what exactly this modification entails, and whether you would be willing to approve it within Mercosur so that the agreement could be signed by the end of the year. Thank you.

President Lula: Look, actually, President Macron did not present me with a proposal; he presented a thesis, you know, regarding the agreement. There is a political need here in France, due to the situation and the opposition, to sell the idea that if an agreement is made between the European Union and Mercosur, French or European agriculture will suffer because they cannot compete with Brazilian agribusiness.

Now, agribusiness already exports to Europe what they produce. Agribusiness already exports soybean and corn to Europe. Our meat quota, according to Márcio, my interim minister, if they fulfilled the quota, the French would eat at most two hamburgers on average per year. That is nothing.

They forget that Brazil has almost six million small farms of up to 100 hectares. I will repeat: Brazil has almost six million small farms up to 100 hectares that are not part of large agribusiness. They forget that, in Brazil, we have 2.5 million small producers with farms from zero to 10 hectares.

What I told President Macron is that it would be important for French farmers to meet with Brazilian farmers because, rather than antagonism, our small and medium-sized agriculture might have a lot of complementarity. That is what should happen. And I suggested to President Macron: let us hold a meeting between your small farmers and ours.

Far from me to want to harm the small French farmer. Far from me. I do not want us to stop buying wine from France, even though we produce wine. I do not want to stop buying champagne, even though we produce champagne. I do not want to stop buying cheese and other dairy products, even though we also produce those.

Now, trade policy is a two-way street, my friends. We sell, we buy; we sell, we buy; we sell, we buy. And only at a negotiation table.

So, a unilateral agreement between France and Brazil is not possible without considering that the European Union has 27 countries and Mercosur has 4. Therefore, we need a collective agreement.

I know that Ursula von der Leyen and the Commission have the mandate to sign the agreement, regardless of whether France wants it or not, because France has already given its mandate. I believe the European Parliament will approve the agreement. But I do not want it to be an agreement where people end up unhappy. That is not an agreement.

You know, when you go out to buy a used car, you find the owner asking for 10. He thinks it is the highest price in the world for him. If he sells for 10, he will make a fortune. You think 10 is cheap. For you, it is also the best deal in the world. That is the agreement. Both parties end up unhappy.

I do not want Brazilian producers to harm French producers. I want us to meet and see where the problem lies. It is not ideological; it is simply economic. And let us discuss to see what we can do.

I am convinced about it. I want you to write this down in your notebooks. Before I leave the Presidency of Mercosur, we will have this agreement signed. With everyone smiling. That is it.

Journalist Lúcia Müzell – RFI: Good morning, Mr. President. Thank you for this press conference. I am Lúcia Müzell from Radio France Internationale. Mr. President, sustainability has been present in your speeches since you arrived here in France. You just spoke about COP30 and about seeing who will take climate issues seriously.

But at the same time, in Brazil, we have seen the anti-environmental agenda advance to an unprecedented level in Congress, with the general environmental licensing law moving forward in Congress. I would like to ask you about your position on this law, on its progress, and to what extent you are willing to block it — is veto an option for you? Thank you very much.

President Lula: Look, when Congress approves a law, that law goes to all the ministers who have some direct relation to it. They suggest what should be vetoed and what should be sanctioned. I believe I have more than 15 days to receive that law. It still has to go to the Chamber of Deputies. So, there is still a huge debate ongoing. We still have a full debate in the Chamber of Deputies.

You realize it is very difficult for a President of the Republic to give opinions on something that is being voted on in the Chamber of Deputies. I have the right to veto. So, let it happen. Let us see if the debate in the Chamber of Deputies progresses.

I believe the ministers in my government who are aligned with this law have to go into the Chamber of Deputies to debate. They have to go into the Chamber of Deputies to convince their peers. Because if we are there arguing, we have a chance to make sure that something better is approved instead of something worse. That is what will happen.

What we know for sure is that we are doing work that has never been done before in this country, and with great difficulty. With great difficulty, because the climate issue is real; it is not false.

Scientists are not making things up. We are experiencing excessive heat, including in the Amazon, where we used to say that the forest would not catch fire because it was humid. But after consecutive droughts, the forest has dried out. And when it dries out, it catches fire. We have this issue. We are now measuring the increase in deforestation due to the fires, as a result of last year’s fires. And we know this.

This is why we are allocating nearly one billion reais to IBAMA, so we can improve our coordination with state governors and with our mayors. Because if they are not with us in this fight, we will not be able to overcome this challenge.

So, we need God’s assistance to make it rain a little more. We need the help of the mayors, who are on the ground. The mayor is the first to smell the smoke. The mayor knows on whose land the fire is occurring, whether accidental or intentional.

So, with all of this, I have the best minister I could have, Marina [Silva], who takes care of this. She barely has time to eat because, she is so thin. But that is how it is.

COP30 is coming up. And one very interesting thing is that Brazil does not want to hide anything, nothing, absolutely nothing. We are not the kind of country that, when a visitor comes to Brazil, we take the poor off the streets to hide the fact that there are poor people.

Nor do we do like some countries I have visited, which put up fences so we cannot see the poor. No. Here, people will see Brazil as it is, in its reality.

So, COP will present a new paradigm for environmental issues. And we will wait for Congress to do its best. As football players say, I hope Congress gives its best for Brazil’s environmental policy. That is it.

Journalist Américo Martins – CNN: Good morning, Mr. President. Thank you very much for the opportunity. This is Américo from CNN.

President Lula: Sometimes, I think you have a partnership with Laércio [Press Secretary at SECOM/PR] because this guy gets picked every time I come. I am going to hire him to play the lottery for me.

Journalist Américo Martins – CNN: We can play together. But you remember me well because I have covered you since the 1994 campaign. There are people here who were not even born back then. This is why.

But thank you very much, Mr. President, for the opportunity. You just said that people already know what will happen regarding the resolution of the conflict between Ukraine and Russia. What do you think will happen, especially concerning the territorial issue? Thank you.

President Lula: I knew you would ask that question, my friend. Let me tell you something. I am convinced that all the European Presidents, especially the Europeans themselves, the United States, Putin, and Zelensky know what is about to happen.

I cannot say, because I am from South America, from the Global South. I will not speculate on something so serious. But I also imagine what will happen. It is just a matter of calculation, just a matter of calculation.

We will realize that the war is coming to an end, there is a limit. I said, at the beginning of this conversation, that I wanted Putin to go to the negotiation table. Putin told me the following: "Look, I will accept a 30-day ceasefire, even knowing that Zelensky wants to rearm. I will accept if he agrees to start discussing the agreement based on the talks we had in March 2022." There was a conversation at the table, and according to him, and Boris Johnson, Prime Minister of the United Kingdom, was the one that disturbed it. I do not know if that is true or not; he told me that.

What I think is that it has already been three years. I think it is time for people to realize that what has already been spent on this war, and the lives lost, will never be recovered.

I believe, and I made this suggestion, that the United Nations can become the protagonist in this matter again. Guterres is a good man. He can call together a group of friends and propose this group of friends to Zelensky and Putin, to talk to both, listen to the truth from both sides, and then build an alternative. Because I am sure you already know what that alternative is as well. I am sure you already know. If you do not, you will think from now on that there is a solution.

So, this is how I think. Now, it is hard for people to go back. It is hard, you know... it is hard to believe in something and then realize that it is not what will happen, that you will not get everything you want, that you will get a part, and another will get a part. But that is how life is.

So, I am rooting for this, and I always say this: Brazil will be at the disposal of Zelensky, at the disposal of Putin, and at the disposal of whoever wants to be part of a group of people who want to promote the agreement.

This is what we are willing to do.

Journalist Tony Cerda – France Press: Good morning, Mr. President. Was the French President willing to sign the agreement before the end of the year? And if the changes he requested, especially safeguard clauses and mirror clauses, could be included? Are you willing to alter this agreement to facilitate its signing? Thank you very much.

President Lula: Look, let me tell you something, the agreement is not between Brazil and France, it is an agreement between the European Union and Mercosur, which involves a total of 31 countries.

So, if President Macron has any issue that he believes harms small French producers, I think Macron’s negotiator in the European Union should make the proposal because he complains about the agreement already signed. The agreement signed by the previous government, we did not even accept it. It is important to remember that Macron complains about an agreement that was made by the previous Brazilian government with the European Union.

And when we took office, we did not accept that agreement, and this is why we made changes. It was strange because Macron talked to me about the agreement made by the previous government.

Look, we will continue talking with France because France is a good political partner, a good economic partner, a good cultural partner, a good linguistic partner, and a good historical partner.

Now I am a Parisian citizen and a member of the French Academy of Letters, with a word. How many of you have added a word there? None. I contributed a word there. The “-ism,” I just put the “-ism” there. It counts.

So, I believe there is no limit to discussion. We will discuss. I am convinced that there will be an agreement.

I will meet with Macron at COP. And I think that, by then, when he is under a 30-meter-high tree and realizes the beauty of that forest, he will say: “Wow, I am going to make an agreement with Brazil. Brazil needs to be happy in order to preserve all of this here. I am going to make an agreement.”

And we do not want to harm the French producer. We do not want to harm anyone, you know? It is not in my mind that we make an agreement to kill the small and medium French producers. What I want is for the small French producers to join with the small Brazilian producers so that we can understand the differences and the similarities between us.

Because an agreement can be good for both sides. I work with that idea. And since I am very close to Macron — in fact, I am very lucky here in France because I was very close to Chirac, very close to Sarkozy, very close to Jospin, very close to François Hollande, and very close to Macron. Do you realize that I get along with everyone? I am a good guy.

So, with France, we do not want any problems with France. Especially now, during this cultural year, with this year of cross-cultural policies, it is going to be very positive.

That is it, companion.

Journalist André Fontenelle – Agence France-Presse: Good morning, Mr. President.

President Lula: Good morning!

Journalist André Fontenelle – AFP: In Brazil, preparations have already begun for next year’s elections. According to the press, the opposition is working on a plan to win control of the Senate. In this context, what do you believe is the most important role for Minister Fernando Haddad: remaining at the Ministry of Finance, running for governor of São Paulo, or becoming a senator for São Paulo? Thank you.

President Lula: Do you think I would be crazy enough to answer that here in Paris?

Look, I was in the opposition for a long time. And the opposition never stops campaigning.

Whenever I lost an election — and I lost many — I would travel all over Brazil starting in January of the following year to prepare for the next campaign. The opposition is doing just that, and it is their right. It is their right.

Now, building candidacies is still very premature — at least from my side. I have a commitment to the Brazilian people. I made a promise to the Brazilian people to rebuild this country. I promised. You know? And when my term ends, I want to have fulfilled all the promises I made to the Brazilian people.

But when next year comes, I will start discussing candidacies. I do not yet know who is best suited for which position. We need to map out Brazil to understand the reality.

They want to elect senators — so do I. They want to elect governors — so do I. They want to elect federal deputies — so do I.

Everyone has the right to want to win elections. What I can tell you is this: the only thing I can say right now about Brazil is that the far right will not win the elections in Brazil. Artificial intelligence or fake news will not make someone win that election. I am telling you, looking you straight in the eyes: the far right will not return to govern this country, especially not with a denialist, dishonest, and often even disgraceful discourse — with no respect for people, no respect for social movements, no respect for women, for Black people, for Indigenous peoples. They will not win the elections. That is what I can tell you.

And when the right time comes, we will choose our candidates.

Journalist Guilherme Waltenberg – Poder360: Will the government present a counterproposal to Hugo Motta [President of the Chamber of Deputies] and Davi Alcolumbre [President of the Senate] so that they do not vote to overturn the IOF tax?

President Lula: The meeting was held at my house. The meeting took place Friday afternoon at my house, a very good meeting with Hugo Motta, with Alcolumbre, with [Fernando] Haddad [Minister of Finance], with Rui Costa [Chief of Staff], with Galípolo [President of the Central Bank]. It was a meeting... Everything is agreed upon. So you can be sure that exactly what we agreed will happen: no fights, no conflict, simply doing what needs to be done — talking, finding a solution, and resolving the issue. That is all.

You may ask, I am feeling very flexible today. Go ahead.

Journalist Sérgio Utsch – SBT: I would just like to follow up on Américo’s question about Ukraine. The Brazilian government’s argument for the need for peace and to end the war is irrefutable. No one in Ukraine disagrees with that. The question is the negotiation and what such a negotiation may lead to.

Do you not agree that a negotiation which ends with Russia retaining part of a territory that does not belong to it — which Brazil does not recognize as Russian — would be a gift to the aggressor, to the invader? Would that not set a very dangerous precedent in geopolitical terms?

President Lula: Look, when you are in a war, things do not always turn out the way we want.

Let me give you a small example. I was once approached by the President of Chile — the one who recently died in the helicopter crash, Piñera — who proposed that I speak with Evo Morales. He was interested in granting Bolivia permission to once again use a strip of coastline. The only thing he did not want was the word independence, you know? The territory would still belong to Chile.

So I went to speak with Evo. And Evo, ideologically, said: “We cannot accept that. The territory is ours, the territory is ours, the territory is ours. We will not accept it.” I said, “Evo, you lost that in a war. Do you really think that, if you started a war now, you would win it?”

So here is the thing, my friend: you can make an agreement to use it for 100 years, you can renew it for another 100 years, then another 100 years, and you could stay there for 500 years. The question is this, the question is this: is Putin going to leave Crimea? Is he going to leave? That is the question I ask you.

Look, neither does he want to leave, nor does Zelensky want to acknowledge another part that has already been invaded but not yet fully taken.

I believe that what is in the agreement is the following: since both sides are facing difficulties, it is necessary for a collegial body, led by the United Nations, to present a reasonable proposal to both of them. This is all I think. What will remain with each side, they already know. I am certain that Zelensky knows. I am certain that Putin knows.

What I am proposing is the creation of a commission of countries not involved in the war to talk with Zelensky and with Putin. Because, from what I have learned in my life — and I know it is not exactly the same — every time you send someone to negotiate and the negotiation gets stuck because both sides do not agree, you need to replace the negotiator.

Negotiators must come to the table prepared. When I send one of my ministers to negotiate anything, I tell them: go to that meeting, willing to accept or not accept. So now, you have to send people willing to make an agreement.

It is neither 100% Zelensky’s position nor 100% Putin’s position. It is 100% of what is possible. It is that simple.

Thank you, everyone. Thank you. See you next time.