President Lula’s interview at press conference after visit to Russia

Broadcasted live by CanalGov

Look, first of all, it is always a pleasure when we conclude a trip to a country and talk to the Brazilian press to discuss some interests, which are Brazilian and geopolitical interests.

The first element is that yesterday I received news that made me extremely happy, regarding the IBGE [Brazilian National Institute of Research and Statistics] data showing that there has been a growth in income and a drop in inequality. I have been telling you all in Brazil that we have planted many good things during the first two years in office, after the reconstruction process. And that 2025 would be the year when we would start to harvest all that has been planted.

And this first IBGE study shows that we were on the right track with our measures to combat hunger, poverty, and inequality, and to raise the income level of the Brazilian population. All indicators have been extremely positive from the standpoint of escalating social achievements in Brazil.

This is really great because you know that I have a dream that Brazil will one day become a country with a middle-class standard for its entire population. This is the dream I carry with me when I think about working with income distribution policies.

The second element that you must be anxious to ask about is the issue of social security. Thank God, the Office of the Comptroller General (CGU) and our Federal Police, in a process of much investigation and much intelligence, without any fuss, have managed to dismantle a criminal organization that had been operating in this country since 2019.

There are serious organizations in the midst of this who have certainly not committed any crime, and there are organizations that were created to commit crimes. This is an issue that I avoid commenting on because it is in the hands of the Federal Police, in the hands of the Office of the Attorney General, in the hands of the Office of the Comptroller General, and in the hands of Justice.

What I can tell you so that you can write to the Brazilian people is that the victims will not be harmed. Those who will be harmed are the ones who once dared to exploit Brazilian retirees and pensioners, creating entities and making promises, perhaps never fulfilled, to these people.

The third important element is that my visit to Russia was due to three important facts. First, because Russia is a good trade partner. Mauro [Mauro Vieira, Brazilian Minister of Foreign Affairs] just forgot to mention that we actually have a trade deficit with Russia. Of the 30 percent of all the diesel oil we consume, 70 percent of that is imported from Russia. So, we end up with a trade deficit. Out of a trade flow of nearly 12 billion, our deficit is almost 11 billion.

And my visit here was to discuss trade and try to balance it, because we believe that a good trade policy is based on reciprocity. We buy and sell in roughly equal measure, so that neither side is harmed. We discussed this with President Putin [Vladimir Putin, President of Russia]. We want to expand our economic dialogue with Russia. Russia is an important partner for us when it comes to oil, gas, and small-scale nuclear reactors, which are an extraordinary innovation that can help us secure energy for the long term.

We know that nuclear and solar energy are volatile. They do not always produce the same quantities. And we know that, in a country aiming to become the seventh-largest world economy, we must have a great amount of energy and the guarantee that we will never have any energy shortages, we will never experience what happened in Spain, what happened in Portugal.

Moreover, because Brazil has a Brazilian energy system, it is integrated, possibly one of the few of its kind around the world. What we need now is to interconnect Roraima, and then Brazil will be completely integrated. If we need to take energy from the Oiapoque to Chuí, we will manage to do it very easily. This is something that did not happen when we had the 2001 energy blackout, because we had excess energy in the Southern region while energy shortages were going on in other parts, and there were no transmission lines.

So, we want to make a deal, and we want to strengthen this agreement, this discussion with Russia. Minister Alexandre Silveira [Minister of Mines and Energy] came here before us and spoke with the Russian ministers. We invited them to visit Brazil to learn more. Their company has already been to Brazil. We also have the idea of expanding our research and exploration of critical minerals, because that is what people are focusing on right now. We believe Brazil cannot afford to miss any opportunity.

The opportunity of energy transition, the opportunity of a climate transition, the opportunity of these critical minerals that everyone is talking about and that Brazil has plenty of, because only 30% of our territory has been researched, there is still a lot to research and we want to build partnerships with every country around the world that has expertise, so that we can benefit from this and so that Brazil can transform into a large-scale economy.

Another relevant element is the issue of World War II. I mean, this is a country that was part of the Allies, the one that lost the largest number of people. This country lost practically 26 million people. There was a moment when its youth was practically decimated by World War II.

So I came here because this is a very important celebration. Some people think that the celebration consisted only of yesterday’s parade. Yesterday, they organized a parade for the authorities, but Victory Day is celebrated throughout the Russian territory. It was a huge celebration.

Honestly, I think we all need to be aware that we can never again allow things like Nazism to happen on planet Earth. You know, not in war, and certainly not in politics, which is what we are seeing grow in part of the world.

You may ask, Have you discussed the issue of the war in Ukraine? I brought this up before, during, and after the meeting. We told President Putin what we have been saying since the beginning of this war. Brazil is against the territorial occupation of another country. You know, Brazil is part of a group of countries that, together with China, established a group of friends composed of three emerging countries — and I told President Putin we are willing to help in the negotiations, as long as the two countries in the dispute want us to participate in these negotiations.

Brazil believes it is madness to keep promoting this war. It is madness that Europe is resorting to militarization again, afraid of war. It is madness that England is resorting to militarization again, that Japan is resorting to militarization again. In short, we are spending trillions of dollars on guns when the world needs us to spend trillions of dollars on education, on health, and on food for the people who are starving. This is the world we want to build.

I made it a point to come here to say that Brazil is advocating for the strengthening of multilateralism. It cannot be that we have not learnt a lesson on the importance of multilateralism after World War II.

[World War II] humanized trade among countries and nations. Wanting to go back to the theory of protectionism is in nobody’s interest but that of those who proposed the idea. Because what we do want is a more flexible and fair trade in which we can, among other things, work with policies that favor the smaller countries, the poorer countries. I discussed this topic with President Putin, too, and I am going to discuss it tomorrow with President Xi Jinping [from the People's Republic of China]. It will also be part of the discussions we want to have at our dear BRICS, you know, in July, in Brazil.

So I am leaving here happy, you know, with what is going on in Brazil. I am happy for the conversations we are having with other countries, because we want to strengthen the democratic process around the world, and the negotiation process around the world.

I had the opportunity to participate in a very important meeting of the WTO in 2008, when we were one millimeter from closing the trade negotiations for the world, and President Bush [George W. Bush] — because they had elections coming up, you know, in the United States — asked us to suspend negotiations. We did, and then never resumed them.

The United States never again remembered to sit down with the WTO for this discussion. And the attempt to establish unilateral agreements, to do it country by country, is tantamount to throwing away the essence of multilateralism. So this is why we do not accept it, this is why we are against protectionism and in favor of strengthening free trade.

This is it. I do not know if you have any smart questions.... Oh, remember that my wife [Janja Lula] came here before I did. She delivered a talk about the issue of hunger and poverty eradication, on behalf of the Global Alliance against Poverty and Hunger, at the University of Saint Petersburg and also here in Moscow. And she brought me the news that I will be honored with the title of Honorary Doctorate from the University of Saint Petersburg. A university where Lenin [Vladimir Lenin, former head of government of the Soviet Union] studied, a university where Putin studied. And I will be honored as an Honorary Doctor. Happy.

Rodolfo Lucena (Tutameia) — A few days ago — around two weeks — the U.S. Secretary of Defense presented, or reaffirmed, President Trump’s view that the United States must “retake control of their backyard,” as he put it, referring to Latin America, Central America, and South America. Mr. President, what is your response to this idea from the Trump administration that Latin America is the United States’ backyard?

President Lula — Look, I would not say “the Trump administration.” I would say that for a long time, many people have thought that Brazil was the United States’ backyard. And Brazil is no backyard. Brazil is a free, sovereign country, with the sovereign interests of its people. We want to treat the United States with a lot of respect, because we have had diplomatic relations for 200 years. And we also want to be treated with a lot of respect.

Brazil does not want to be better than anyone, but we are not going to be treated as less than anyone either. At the very least, Brazil wants to be treated as an equal. So yes, Brazil wants to be treated with respect.

We are a very large country, a country with a population of 213 million people, a very generous people, and a country that is very loved by its people. So, Brazil will not be anyone’s backyard — not of any country, not of any continent. Brazil will be its own backyard: a free and sovereign country.

José Henrique Mariante (Folha de S. Paulo) — Mr. President, an important issue related to the event here. You have mentioned several times the importance of the event — 80 years in remembrance of the war. However, for many European countries — and not only for the European press — what they saw here was political propaganda for Vladimir Putin. Do you disagree with that statement? Also, is there a cost in terms of diplomatic image or even personal image, since you are putting yourself forward and are willing to act as a negotiator concerning Ukraine? Many people say that taking part in the event would undermine your credibility as a negotiator, precisely because he is too aligned with one side…

President Lula — I think it would be much easier if people could have a positive expectation, rather than a negative one. Europe should be celebrating yesterday’s date, because it was Europe that was at war. France should be celebrating, Germany should be celebrating yesterday’s date, because it was thanks to what happened in 1945 that Nazism — which had taken over Germany — was defeated. So, all of Europe should be celebrating yesterday. Victory Day against Nazism. I mean, I do not see what there is to criticize, you know, about a country that lost 26 million young people celebrating the way they did. I do not see it, you know, because I think… Brazil did it, and Italy is going to do it. I think it is important to do it… Look, political exploitation — if everything is seen as political exploitation, we will not be able to do anything.

Brazil’s stance is extremely solid. I mean, regardless of my coming here, regardless of my going to China, regardless of my going to Argentina, regardless of my going to any country, our stance remains the same regarding what we believe about the Ukraine war. We want peace. And we discussed it yesterday with President Putin — that we want peace. And that peace is important. Peace is important for Russia, it is important for Ukraine, it is important for the United States, it is important for the European Union, which will stop spending money on weapons.

I have been saying this since I was president back in 2003: Let us spend money to eradicate hunger. 733 million people go hungry every day. Meanwhile, countries are going back to spending money on weapons. I do not know if this is true, but I saw in the media that Europe is going to spend 800 billion dollars on arms, when it should be spending at least half of that to feed people who are starving.

So I think people need to think more positively and be less selfish in their way of thinking. Look, if Brazil organizes a celebration of anything, does that mean it is politically exploiting the issue? If I go to a Carnival celebration, does it mean the celebration is being used for political purposes? That is a very limited way of thinking. Frankly, that is a very limited way of thinking.

Vladimir Netto (TV Globo) — Mr. President, first of all, I would like to ask: how do you see the absence of other leaders from Western democracies from yesterday’s Victory Day parade? And also, how do you respond to critics who say that the visit to Russia shows partiality regarding the conflict with Ukraine?

President Lula — I honestly want to tell you that Brazil’s discourse will continue to be exactly the same. We work for, we want, and we root for the end of this war. And this war can only end if both sides want it to happen. If only one side wants it, it will not end. So, I will continue to work with the group of friends. The document signed by China and Brazil remains intact. If I decide to discuss the issue of peace with Putin, I will discuss the issue of peace with Xi Jinping, I will discuss the issue of peace with France. Because the only thing that matters at this point is for the world to go back to normality.

Not just here. Also in the Gaza Strip. In the Gaza Strip, there are not two states at war — there, it is a genocide carried out by a very well-prepared army against women and children, under the pretext of killing terrorists. There were cases where they blew up a hospital and found no terrorists — only women and children.

This is why Brazil continues to advocate for the strengthening of the United Nations and the renewal of the UN Security Council, with the entry of new members. This is why Brazil wants to participate as a permanent member. This is why Brazil believes that India must be present, Germany must be present, Japan must be present, several African countries must be present, and other Latin American countries must be present.

So that we can provide the strength required for the existence of the United Nations — which, in 1948, had the strength to establish the State of Israel and now does not even have the strength to maintain peace in the land where the Palestinians are living. This is the concrete data, and this is Brazil’s attitude. My coming here does not change, even by a millimeter, the way we think about peace and what we want with regards to peace. We will continue to want peace, and we will continue talking to everyone who wishes to talk.

Luiz Fara Monteiro (TV Record) — I would like to know, regarding the social security system, whether you have decided to request an acceleration of the reimbursement of amounts that were overcharged or diverted from public funds and pensioners. And do you believe the government suffered significant political damage due to the perception that it took too long to act after the first allegations were made?

President Lula — Look, let me tell you something: giving it back or not will depend on finding out the number of people who have been scammed. The number of people who had their names were added to a list without their signatures. Because those who signed it, well, they authorized it. So, what we want — and this is why people are criticizing that it is taking too long — it is because, you see, there could have been a lot of fuss about it, you know, without actually investigating it.

Because we want to seriously investigate it, both the Office of the Comptroller General (CGU) and the Federal Police have gone deeply into the examination to reach the heart of the criminal organization. If they had made a fuss about it a year ago, it would possibly have stopped at that — as it frequently happens with this kind of report: you have a huge pyrotechnic show about it in one week, then there are no more fireworks, and you forget about it. No. We decided to dismantle a criminal organization established in 2019.

It is important to note: a criminal organization that was established in 2019. And you know who governed Brazil in 2019. You know who was the Minister of Social Security in 2019. You know who was the Chief of Staff in 2019. We could have made a huge pyrotechnic show. But we are not after headlines — we want to investigate it.

We want to investigate it, and those organizations that have stolen will have their assets frozen. From these assets, we will repatriate the money so we can pay people back. Well, if we do not have the competency to obtain the money from the organizations, we must obviously say — and we have to be careful about it — this money did not come from public coffers. It came from the salaries of pensioners. Which I find even more serious. This money came out of the pockets of our pensioners when someone asked to deduct it from their salaries. So, this crime was a robbery against this country’s retirees and pensioners.

They did not go into the coffers of the INSS [Brazilian National Institute of Social Security]; they went into the pockets of the population. That is what makes us even angrier. And that is why we will go deep to find out who is who in this game. And if there were people from the previous administration involved in it. That is what we will do.

And I am not in a hurry. What I want is for us to be able to investigate so we can present the truth to the Brazilian people — the truth alone — because I am not after a pyrotechnic show. I am after the investigation of the truth: who robbed the pockets of Brazil’s retirees and pensioners? What I do know is that they will not be left at a loss.